SA: Whose responsibility is it?

Discussion in 'Fighter Tactics' started by Waystin2, Aug 4, 2011.

  1. Waystin2

    Waystin2 Administrator
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    I was thinking about the amount of folks ingame and yes a few Pigs as well that get upset when an unseen con jumps them. I will put it out there that SA around your aircraft is absolutely the individual pilots responsibility. You need to be looking around your cockpit at all times like a nervous mouse at a cat convention. Having the Pigs around you is a second layer of defense and eyes, but in the end it is you that needs to keep up with what is going on around your aircraft. We all need to take the time to toss sixes, clear sixes, but more importantly call out cons as they enter our operations area. Keep it simple and informative like: Pony at 10,000 feet from the northwest. It is enough that if someone needs additional info they can ask. What are the Pigs thoughts?

    :salute:

    Way
     
  2. Ardy123

    Ardy123 New Member

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    Its always the pilots responsibility, not your friends. Sadly, there is a human limitation to the number of items at one time you brain can track, (its about 7). For most its much less, in AH anything over 3 begins to feel overwhelming because you have to also determine what their next move is by looking for clues in their moves, forcing you to look longer.

    Here is a crazy video of me getting ganged, I was beyond my limit in terms of SA, but hopefully its helpful...

    http://dasmuppets.com/public/Ardy123/ubergang_garbageAim.ahf
     
  3. Waystin2

    Waystin2 Administrator
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    I was talking to Changeup about this today. I was saying that I do not know how others do it, but I keep everything in an imaginary HUD in my head: I fix positions and tracks on Pigs, enemy cons, field positions, my compass orientation, etc. and constantly strive to update it. Yes it gets hectic, but I sure as hell do not get picked very often. Gotta go take my Ritalin now...:crazyjump
     
  4. Cheese

    Cheese Member

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    +1...It's really hard to track all cons in the major furballs. Plus, even if you do die, you get a free plane!
     
  5. Ardy123

    Ardy123 New Member

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    If you have the ammo, the best thing to do is to get in there and don't be timid and run. The more you jump into hellish clouds of red, the better your SA will get. If you hide amongst your friends then it will never improve. Like everything else, practice makes perfect.
     
  6. HamHawk

    HamHawk New Member

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    Whats sa? pd2191363.jpg What bad guys? I can snap look and remember positions as for thier next move I dont know enough ACM yet to judge that and often am too aggressive for my own good..but getting in a tough spot is a good way too learn seeing as I get a new plane and get to try again.
     
  7. UrSelf

    UrSelf Member

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    My SA is ok it could use some work, the only time i seem to get picked from my 6 is climbing down to help someone else, then i get killed while clearing there 6 while they fly home all safe and cozy, this is after i get yelled at to come save them. theres right times and wrong times to dive in and save a person, next time i'll think alittle harder about saving such person.
     
  8. Waystin2

    Waystin2 Administrator
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    I did not want to go past my observation but folks have brought up a few things that I have got to get my self heard on.

    1) Deciding not to dive in to more than one enemy con and fight it out is not timid, it is a SA decision with the following in mind: I want to get those two or more planes into a compromised situation where I and/or my squaddies can kill them. I am in it for the fight, but if it is short and a Pig gets a kill, it's good enough for me. I have flown now for over 4+ years and the thrill of the game is much different now that it used to be. A great 1 vs 1 fight cannot be expected everytime, but when it occurs enjoy it.

    2) I have begun taking much less care of green guys, and focusing more on Pigs when in heavy action. I will NEVER hesitate to dive in for a fellow Pig. It is that promise that keeps us tight in the air. Some of us fly high, some us fly low, but we all fly as a pack. Period.
     
  9. UrSelf

    UrSelf Member

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    well i know when i'm around the Pigs i fly alot more aggresive because i know ever Pig will have my back to some extent, i'm not asking anyone to die for me it's just a plane and there free, but one thing about the Pigs is that they will Fly into the shit to try and save you if not save your ass.

    Hats off to Changup last night, he was out of ammo , low fuel, i was behind him some with the same thing low ammo no fuel we both realized it was time to beat feet home, then i get jumped from behind i dunno maybe 3 or 4 can't remember, point is once i called them on me Changeup said " comming back to ya " i knew he was outa ammo no fuel so i just said "naw it's cool head home" he goes your a Pig we dont leave Pigs behind, we fought it out till the end.

    Waystin i like flying around your wing, you do a great job of driving down and working an oppenant into submission all the time calling out other bogies or your intensions ( banking up, diving down popping back up ) things like that and it gets me doing the same thing which greatly improves my SA sense im more aware, the years with the 68th we have only a few real fighter sticks Raptor, hawk, RacerX, Lu, hobo, Spade and myself we did most of the fighter only roles or Hvy Jabo's the others did the bomber roles with great sucess, but we didnt comunicate as well as the Pigs do while Dogfighting so i'm still learning that part and will try to do better, i will say i'll dive in to save any Pig even if death results from it, I Leave No Swine Brutha Behind
     
  10. Ardy123

    Ardy123 New Member

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    Never a wrong time to save a person if he asks for it. We all have unlimited lives and planes.

    If one is to learn, one is to throw caution into the wind at times. Otherwise one just learns how to avoid unfavorable situation.

    The truth is we don't play and fight like 'real' pilots as we don't have any risk. Read any ww2 combat memoir, and you will soon see that all their behavior would be considered dweeby in our books. AKA, running to friendlies, avoiding combat unless an advantage is available, etc...

    ...And for good reason, but our lack of risk is liberating, enabling us to learn in ways that no real pilot would ever dare too, also enabling us to learn our planes better than real pilots.

    This relates to SA in that we can afford to teleport to the tower and thus afford to work on our SA. Never should one get pissed at others for failing to give a check-6 etc...
     
  11. Dodger

    Dodger New Member

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    It is 100% the pilots responsibility. That said the best skill to help SA is being able to kill quickly. Not only is your focus on the target ahead but the following con knows where you are going next.
     
  12. Waystin2

    Waystin2 Administrator
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    In the end here is my biggest advice for a good first step towards strong SA. Check the following positions around your plane about every 15-30 seconds, any time increment longer and you allow the opportunity for a con to jump you or a squaddie.

    1) Directly above your plane
    2) Directly below your plane
    3) Six o'clock
    4) Three o'clock
    5) Nine o'clock

    If you check these five positions in a rotating manner regularly it will become habit and you will be more aware of what is going on around you.

    Last thing to throw out there and that is about target fixation. If you see only one thing, then you see nothing. Think about it...
     
  13. Changeup

    Changeup Banned

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    I agree with everything said with one exception and it happens fairly regularly...at least from my perspective. There is no excuse for any of us getting whipped down low when we have the high ground AND we outnumber the red guys. We have just as many pilots that like it down and dirty as we do pilots that like it up with the astronauts to allow one, two, or three cons to enter airspace we clearly control. In my mind that isn't acceptable...not from the ballsy guys that fly with us.

    There is a time to check 6 and a time to suck it up and come-on-down...but there isn't any excuse for any of us getting shot up in this situation. In 90% of these cases we get complacent...we control the airspace and we all get to bullshitting around on VOX while the guys that are low are finishing up the low cons and 2 or 3 cons slip in and wreak a bit of havoc on the guys down low. So I would only add this:

    There are TWO types of SA: your situation and the real-time situation occurring in the total enforceable airspace and that is everyone in the squad's responsibility that happens to be on-station.
     
  14. HamHawk

    HamHawk New Member

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    yeha I like to start high and work down usually as a fights wearing down I get too agressive and end up to far from any Pigs for them to help when I eventually get in trouble this is My fault I need to let them know Hey Im going to start a stall fight with this 109 on the deck in my pny please watch the Nikki and the spit that are down there aswell heh. Sa failure on my part.yes I know a pony aint a stall or a turn figther but Ive actually been doing halfway decent with it lately got into a few good fihts on the deck or mid alt im still not that great at acm but i am getting better t e retention
    \
     
  15. semp

    semp Member

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    I have a pretty good sa, that's mostly because I flew by myself for a long time. I am usually giving check sixes to the guy that is behind me trying to clear my six. very seldom will somebody kill me without me seeing him first.

    I like the way waystin puts it. imagine in your head where the enemy/friends are then plan your moves according to that. if you know there's 3 cons moving towards you, dont go chase that single guy by yourself. better to pull back a bit, get better position than to try to nail one, then die.

    but really if you get killed often by cons you didnt see, then you should work a little more on your sa. also invest in trakir it will help you keeping track of cons in a furball. it's easier to move your head a bit than to press a button on our stick. it's 180 bucks shipped but well worth the money.

    and follow the 3 1 1 rule. for every 3 seconds you look forward spend 1 second looking up behind and 1 second looking behind you. most cons will come either directly behind or dive from up above you.

    and oh yeah the reason for check sixes is so you can look back and smile :)
     
  16. Pandora

    Pandora Banned

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  17. Pandora

    Pandora Banned

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    Totally agree with you, Wey. But it's still damn frustrating when you feel you should have had a call and don't get it. I emphasize "feel", not "think" ....

    Pan <S>
     
  18. Rogent

    Rogent New Member

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    I have fairly good SA, and it is downright frustrating when on a good run, or just having a good day in general, when twenty guys are around and a con pops my wing off. Times like that, can't help but to get little urked.

    My pet peeve on the game is when 20 guys are around and they don't bother to help.
     
  19. JunkyII

    JunkyII Active Member

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    Sorry this is definately bumping an old thread but I thought it was a very interesting thread.

    Remember there are different levels of SA, Local..area...and map SA in the game of Aces High.

    MAP SA is whats going on in the entire arena. It mainly helps you find fights and pick what field you want to get to the fight from. If you up at a base that is getting capped expect to have a higher chance of dieing.

    area SA is what happening on your clipboard map in the grid squares around you. You see a red bar in the grid north of you that moves into your area...assume you may have a target coming from the north.

    Local SA is what is happening in your lines of sight, 6.0 to 200k. This is by far the hardest and most important part of SA, but if your good at the other 2 you won't get yourself in bad situations and learn to give you the advantage going into the fight easier. I check my 6 about every 5 seconds when on an enemy craft, I assume he is screaming for help on his end. I find when you have to chase someone to kill them it puts you into a bad situation, learn to set up quick kills by learning angles of attack and reversals. Ardy was completely right when he talked about predicting the enemy moves, but remember you could end up being wrong so don't rule them out as threats.

    Things we can do to help other members of the squad with SA is to give clear enemy sitreps..."Spit closing on you 1k out" This gives the person an idea of how long it will take for that spit to get into guns range(At 1 K out he should be already bstarting his break away or reverse pointing nose down ect ect)and how much longer he can engage the enemy he may be engaging.

    :salute:
     
  20. Crater

    Crater Banned

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    If I may resurrect this thread I would like to point out there are multiple dimensions to SA.

    I typically turn down my ride's engine to about 6% and bump external engine noise from 80% to 100%.

    I can usually hear another plane from over 400+ yards out.

    ...and if I'm not expecting to hear another aircraft I will usually roll & break.
     

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